What does it mean to be fully alive? An interview with Elizabeth Oldfield 

In a wide-ranging conversation, the former Theos director and host of the Sacred Podcast talks seasons of withdrawal, living in community - and the Church becoming the kind of people the world needs.

Interview by Baptist minister Shaun Lambert

Shaun Lambert: I think readers would know you from your work with Theos (Christian religion and society thinktank), The Sacred Podcast, your recent book Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times, perhaps living in an intentional community.

One of the lovely things about your book is your personal story woven through it. One of the stories you talk about is stepping out of your role at Theos to pay attention to your wellbeing. And I think that’s an important theme for leaders or anyone generally. Just wondered if you could say how you got that epiphany and put it into action?

Elizabeth Oldfield: Yes…This was around 2021, and I’d been leading Theos for coming up to ten years at that point. I had two children, was in the middle of that busy season many of us go through, trying to keep going with work and young children.

And then we hit the pandemic and like many people leading organisations it was really a lot to navigate. I had a strong sense of responsibility for my team, and their wellbeing and those various vulnerabilities we are all navigating as a collective. I think one of my deep values is about relationships being healthy, and humane organisational cultures. I probably put a lot of pressure on us to not just survive but find a way through with our values intact.

Which we did and which I’m very grateful for. But I had this real sense when I prayed that it was time to stop. I ignored it for quite a while because that didn’t seem feasible at the time. We really needed my income, and I just assumed it was because I was exhausted. That it was just burnout talking. But we’d come through the worse of it and things were beginning to settle, but this was still there: ‘You need to stop, and you need to rest.’

And I don’t often hear the voice of God as clearly in that way, it’s happened a few times in my life. But it was such a repeated and clear thought coming out of nowhere, every time I prayed. I began to take it seriously with our housemates to understand what that was about, and with my husband. Eventually came to the decision it was very clear guidance and my season at Theos was ending... but that I wasn’t supposed to step straight into something else.

That was really risky; risky financially, risky in all the ego things. So, I took around probably six months of doing very little professional work. I was still making podcasts a day and a half a week but that was it. I had to learn how to rest, I had to learn what our tradition has to teach us about sabbath, about these seasons of withdrawal, quietness, prayer, allowing God to restore us and not needing to prove anything.

SL: Ignatian spirituality talks about taking risks for God but it’s not necessarily in a lot of our spiritualities, so do you think there’s a spirituality there of taking a risk?

EO: Hah, I didn’t know that part about the Ignatian tradition and it’s a real theme we’re talking about in our little household right now. About what would it mean to be taking risks to follow God.

It just feels that self-protectedness is the opposite. I don’t think being a Christian requires you to take stupid risks with your life or living. But if we look at the things we are called to, the things fully aliveness requires, that this strange upside-down story is inviting us into - they are risky.



'All of life is formation'

SL: In your book you talk about the seven deadly sins with a contemporary take, and one of the chapters I really love is From Distraction to Attention. In one of your Substack writings which link to this, you say, ‘I believe all of life is formation. Everything we pay attention to, every place we repeatedly find ourselves shapes us.’

I’m just wondering how formation became such a deep value for you?

EO: Yes… great question. I haven’t had this question before Shaun, very nice. How did it? I have often had this kind of sense of wanting to live intentionally. I had this sort of accident in my early 20s that kind of catapulted me out of normal career stuff for a bit. And ending up in a lot of funerals in a row gave me this real moment of clarity. Where I had this sense of, what do you want your life to be about? And wanting it to be about love, about relationships, not about all these external trappings. So that’s been a theme.

But in terms of the idea of formation itself, it was only really after I wrote the book that I realised it was a book about being formed.

You know with this hunger of trying to become the person you want, that the world needs, and not knowing how, and then going digging into these practices and postures and themes that are my inheritance, from an extraordinarily rich ancient wisdom tradition. I then thought a lot about becoming the person you want and growing up your soul.

That language of formation is very standard with it, Jesuits and Catholicism more widely, but not particularly known in the bit of the church I’ve spent the most time in. It meant that something that was obvious to a lot of people, I was discovering for the first time.




Living in a community - 'a part of the book people are fascinated by'

SL: Yes, I came across formation through poetry and mindfulness and contemplative history. But I think your interest in community as well brings that about. And I felt before lockdown, through the Holy Spirit, there should be a turn in the church toward community. The pandemic sort of amplified that.

But I wonder if this is a sense you have? It seems you’ve written about it, you’re trying to start a grown-up conversation about community and facilitating other people to do it. People seem fascinated, the response has been great, with TV, newspapers and stuff like that.

EO: It’s definitely the bit of the book that’s most intriguing! We have felt that something is stirring. It’s not that this is new. Some Christians have always seen the outworking of their faith as requiring living up close to other people and sharing, praying together fundamentally.

I suppose the most well-known example of that is Religious brothers and sisters. It’s a sense of spiritual need for the church, the formation of the culture is so strong that we need the counter-formation of collective practices that are more robust than just showing up on a Sunday morning. And that trying to be a Christian in this culture individually is incredibly difficult.

I don’t mean pulling the escape cord, the Benedict option of withdrawing from the culture. I just mean we need deeper roots than we currently have. If the church is going to meet the challenges of this moment and be the kind of people the world needs, modelling what it means to love our neighbours and love our enemies, then we’re going to need to be more discipled - and it’s easier for us to disciple each other up close.

But honestly, I think there’s a renewed interest in it across society because we are facing this crisis: not enough housing, too many people are lonely, we have a very serious climate catastrophe oncoming. And we’re going to need each other. And the idea that individual consumers can navigate their way through life without being in deep trusting relationships with reciprocity and mutual care comes to look more and more laughable.

I think there’s multiple drivers towards it, and I hope that the church will take its place in saying, 'actually we’ve done this for a long time, and we have some pretty robust non-rose-tinted wisdom for how you do it.'


SL: You sort of organically grew your wisdom living together and one of your lovely phrases is, ‘clarity equals kindness’. Are there other phrases which have really helped you to do it, for it’s not easy living in community?

EO: No not easy, and we’re currently taking people through a year’s worth of helping them think about it. We call it the community curious cohort! It’s just a pilot at the moment but it may be something we expand.

And so, we’ve been saying this is what we’ve learnt. The key things that come up again and again are the relationships in the community are the most important thing. You need to have a solid bedrock of knowing each other, common vision, common values and practices that are going to enable you to keep investing in and repairing those relationships – because there will be rupture – so make sure you build in repair.

There’s a famous Bonhoeffer quote that people love the idea of community, it’s much harder to love the actual people in your community. And so, in the tending to our relationships, we talk about how can I love you well? That’s the question we try to ask each other.

The other primary thing we are working on with these potential communities, which is key, is really robust lead-up. Don’t just move in with a bunch of people. Don’t let the house lead, that often leads to disaster. A property comes up and a bunch of people say, ‘oh brilliant, we can all move in together.’ And they’ve done none of the groundwork. They’ve done none of the engagement, none of the marriage course, you know.

So, you need rigorous process, knowing each other, talking about everything, designing rhythms and rituals for a rule of life that are going to hold you to the vision and in relationship with each other, would be the key thing. I think it can look all kinds of different, but going in with the expectation that conflict is normal, clarity is kindness and if you invest in the relationship between you everything else will sort itself out.




'Listening to people who are very different to you' - peace building theory

SL: That’s brilliantly helpful. And obviously you’re talking about shared values as well, but one of the things you do through your peace building theory which you talk about in your book is listen to people who are very different to you… who might have a sacred story... and suspending your judgement.

Can you say a bit about that? Because that again is a huge issue in culture and the church, I think.

EO: Yes, honestly our ability to live alongside and care for people who are not like us has been radically and rapidly eroded, and we need to recover it. And the irony is that you see all those dynamics in the church – who know that we have an inbuilt tendency to tribalism.

It’s there in the scripture, it’s there all over the New Testament. Ancient near eastern society was possibly even more divided than our own.And Jesus comes as this figure who crosses borders, who crosses boundaries, who breaks purity laws, is always seen with the outsider. And that is a call we can model.

Then there’s these remarkable set of practices that were used in the Civil Rights movement, used in South Africa. Ghandi used them, turning your other cheek, steadying yourself in the context of disagreement, conflict or threat. Staying open and connected, listening, noticing your desires to lash out or run away and resisting it.

And then the radically counter cultural commitments to loving our enemies. What does it mean to bless those who curse us rather than curse them back?

None of these things are easy but they are simple. We can practise them. 


Using social media 

SL: I think that’s very inspiring. I think the other thing to come back to, because in a sense that’s about formation as well, but I’m trying to lead a contemplative life, and you said something in one of your essays recently, six months after the launch of the book: ‘I feel emptied now. The individual (rather than collective) practices I wrote about as so helpful in my own life have largely slipped… It’s time to retreat.’ 

You then talk about finding hiddenness and being unobserved… getting away from the deformation of social media. How do we do that?

EO: I’m so grateful for this community, every time I feel spiritually dry it’s because I’ve been away too much. I get up and do morning prayer with others, and finding collective rhythms with other people really helps with that accountability. That sort of commitment without being a flake is really out of fashion. We find it annoying because we want to hit the snooze alarm. But I’m so convinced it’s what we need.

I must have very strong boundaries on the public side. My housemate hides my devices from me. My husband is rubbish at it, he just puts them somewhere obvious. And my kids really like doing it but they always leave them sticking out.

But my housemate likes puzzles, so he finds different places every single time. I physically can’t get them. So helpful. I go on retreat; I go and spend a few days in silence. I have a spiritual director. And collectively those things seem to be, just about, enough to stop me at least ungrowing, shrinking.

SL: You talk about boundaries, breaks and being, do you want to say something about those in using social media?

EO: Oh yes, I do! That summary is helpful, it just is knowing when I will and won’t be on social media and then getting help with that. You can download all sorts of blockers. I tend to be able to ferret my way through them all which is why I need people to hide stuff for me.

Breaks – I have 24 hours off at the weekend… usually. And I took all of August off from social media, writing the Substack. And I’ll need to do that again before too long.

And being myself, this is particularly in relation to Instagram actually, and it’s possibly a particularly female thing. What social media encourages you to do is perform a particular version of yourself, witty, clever. In women’s case being physically attractive.

And so, I won’t let myself put makeup on to record something. Half my videos for the Sacred Podcast I look really tired because I’ve decided that’s not important. And on Twitter (X) not pretending to be more sure than I am. Not trying to be wittier or cleverer than I am. That word authentic is very worn-out and I don’t think it is necessarily useful anymore. But there’s something closer which is just honest.... reasonably unguarded.

SL: I guess there’s a good side, you’ve written a book, and all these doors have opened. The book is sort of antihistamine for those who might be allergic to how they see Christianity. Are the doors opening a great encouragement?

EO: My particular set of skills are in communication, and I do buy into that old thing, is it Buechner, about vocation: where the world’s deepest needs and your deepest desires meet, this is your calling, and these are effective ways to do it. I think if I didn’t think it was my calling I’d much prefer to leave the whole thing. I am of use, I’m not sure it is of use for me.

SL: So, it does deform us or dehumanise us…

EO: It can. I mean there are things we can do. I now only follow poetry accounts. The platforms will take you back to the feeds they want to show you. And you have to keep going back to, ‘no I only want to follow the people I’ve chosen to follow, thank you very much.’

There are certain habits and practices that you can set up to make it a less deforming environment for yourself. And I have made some friends through social media, it is possible to have actual connection on these platforms. It’s just much harder than it was. And that’s not really what they want you to do on there.


Seeing culture clearly

SL: I think the other thing that comes across in the book very much so is your consideration of culture. So, you’ve got the seven deadly sins which comes out of the monastic movement, which links back to what you’re doing on community, but you’re looking at culture through the lens of each one of these things. What is it that makes you look at culture in the way you do?

EO: I don’t know why you wouldn’t! It’s the air we breathe. If you’re interested in formation anyway and who you’re becoming, then this is the primary driver of that. We are story-shaped creatures, if we don’t pay much attention to it, we will become the sum of the things we pay most attention to and the people we spend most time with inadvertently.

That’s my shorthand for formation: formation equals attention plus relationships.

And most of our attention is taken up with the day-to-day tasks which we must do in our lives, and then the cultural story we are living in. And so, understanding where there is beauty and goodness and that, and where there are things moving us away from the kind of people we want to become feels a central component of growing up our souls.

SL: Yeah… I think what I’m trying to get at, it’s like the goldfish swimming in the water don’t realise they’re swimming in water, but you know you’re swimming in the water and you’re saying something about the water that’s different. How do you do that, for that’s significant, isn’t it?

EO: Yuh… I think this is unconscious competence, Shaun, because I don’t know how. How do I do that? I… No, honestly, I don’t know the answer to that question. What do you think?

SL: I think it’s to do with how you pay attention and it’s like somebody said, the more we pay attention to something the more interesting it becomes… even something very ordinary. Denise Levertov in her poems talked about how paying attention enfaiths you, it grows your faith, it clothes you with faith. But I think it helps you to see more clearly.

So, I think that is implicit in there, and again this is a contemplative idea that diorasis, seeing clearly, is what you were trying to cultivate in contemplation. My sense is you see clearly, and I was trying to tease out why you were doing that, and it may be the practices, it may be you are intentionally paying attention…

EO: Yes! You’ve opened a whole new box in my brain. I think because of my background in media you are aware that these stories are not a given, right? Someone is deciding what the cultural stories are, it’s not just an accurate mirror reflecting back how the world is. So probably having been on the inside of the culture-making-machine gives you a bit of an insight.

And I also think the more we move toward formation and attempting to be formed by this old old story, the easier we can see the wider story for what it is. Which is a particular moment of time which is counter to what the gospel is offering us in terms of what being is like, of what a good life is like.

So yes, I don’t have a media studies practice or anything, I just think I am trying to root deeper into this old story so it’s easier to see how other stories are just that.

SL: That makes sense, that’s helpful, having been an insider you can see how it’s curated and so on. A bishop said to me the charismatics need the contemplative, and they don’t have it. They also need community and often don’t have it. So has the Holy Spirit led you to these things… is there a prophetic sense? Obviously it’s hard thing to say…

EO: I want all the labels or none of them. I’m a contemplative, charismatic, you know evangelical, liberal… um. I do think different parts of the body of Christ, the reason we need each other, and we’ve learnt to tolerate each other, and we’re often not very good at acknowledging what other parts of the body of Christ can teach us, is that we are often stewards of one bit of the treasure, right?

If I was solely in the charismatic tradition I wouldn’t have understood the beauty of silence, more contemplative, liturgical types of prayer, or Ignatian spiritual practices or any of that.

But also, my friends that are very into contemplative prayer, I sometimes think they need to get their hands in the air and have a good weep. Or lie down on the floor, right. We need the ecstatic. I hope we’ll be moving past the time where we’ll still need to be in different boxes.

SL: And that’s that wider stance of yours, which again I think is something we need. I feel that in that conversation you’ve taken us into a wide-open spacious place, in the way the psalmist talks about it.

Thank you, Elizabeth, very much. 

 

Elizabeth Oldfield is the author of Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times (Hodder Faith), of which a paperback version releases in May. She hosts The Sacred podcast and is the former director and now senior fellow of the think tank Theos. 

The Revd Dr Shaun Lambert is a Baptist Minister, author, psychotherapist and Honorary Mindfulness Chaplain at Scargill Movement, a Christian community and retreat centre. His most recent book is Mindful Formation - A Pathway to Spiritual Liberation
 

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